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There are tools to just say, Give me your social security number, give me your address and your mother s maiden name, and we send you a physical piece of paper and you sign it and send it back to us. By the time that s all accomplished, you are a very safe user. But by then you are also not a user, because for every step you have to take, the dropoff rate is probably 30 percent. If you take ten steps, and each time you lose one-third of the users, you ll have no users by the time you re done with the fourth step. The point is, the startups didn t realize there was this risk. We didn t really realize there was this risk component either when we started. But we were just lucky enough . . . Maybe I should be thankful for that happy year of boredom when I was expecting Windows and digging into stuff, figuring out what fraud was all about. But one way or the other whatever caused that we were smart enough to realize that fraud was a huge issue very quickly, and then were successful enough combating it while the startup competitors of ours did not and got buried very quickly. I remember all these companies announcing that they were going out of business and they expected PayPal to go out of business soon too, because the fraud numbers were so staggering that they could not see anyone handling this sort of thing. There was one company I think it was eMoneyMail that shut down the company at a conference basically saying that the Internet is not a safe place to conduct transactions. They had 25 percent fraud. So for every $4.00 changing hands in the system, $1.00 was stolen. And it was all coming out of their pocket. They said, We lost a ton of money, and they just quit. Then, people like Citibank and other large financial institutions that also competed with us that understood the fraud thing very well they knew from many years of practice that this was going to become a big problem didn t really approach it with the same happy abandon that we did. We started with this, Fraud is going to kill us. What can we do to save ourselves They started from, We have no fraud. How can we build this and not let any more fraud in Which is the wrong position to start because you are limiting your users, and new users learning about a new system really don t want to be restricted.
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Livingston: Why do you think they thought that way Levchin: I think there s a very strong power of default where, to them, certain behavior to solve a particular problem is well understood. There are people that make careers out of risk management in big banks. They know that what you do is this and you don t do that. The other part, I think, is that a lot of them are public companies. We didn t go public until we had the fraud thing figured out. Somebody like Citibank or anyone with a substantial public visibility announcing that they are suddenly bleeding out $10 million a month in fraud would send serious shocks through the investor base. But I think, even if they did that, it s likely they wouldn t have been successful because we had talked to a lot of them both as a potential acquirer and as partnership potential none of them had actually ever gone to the sort of stuff that we did for our anti-fraud work.
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