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Livingston: What was one of the most surprising things to you Levchin: It was all surprising. Nonstop learning of things that I didn t really
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know before. The most surprising thing was how big it became. I never thought it was going to be that big. I think I told Peter, If we ever get to be 25 people, I ll probably quit because I like small companies. Is that OK The next time we talked about it, we already had 75 people, so I sort of missed my window. He said, Why don t you stick around till 100, and we ll see what happens Next time we talked, we had 1,000 people.
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Livingston: What advice would you give to a young programmer who s thinking
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of starting a startup
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Levchin: Try to have a good cofounder. I think it s all about people, and, if you
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are doing it completely alone, it s really hard. It s not impossible, in particular if you are a loner and introverted type, but it s still really hard. One of the ways PayPal changed me is that I used to be really introverted, and I sort of still am, but not anywhere near to the extent that I used to be. A big part of it was that I had run a company before PayPal, alone, and I thought it was fine. I could deal with it. But, you only can count on energy sources and support sources from yourself. There s really no one else who you can go to and say, Hey, this thing is going to fall apart any minute now. What the hell are we going to do The thing that kept us going in the early days was the fact that Peter and I always knew that both of us would not be in a funk together. When I was like, This fraud thing is going to kill us, Peter said, No, I ve seen the numbers. You are doing fine. Just keep at it. You ll get it. On the flip side, when Peter would be annoyed by some investors or board dynamics or whatever, I was usually there trying to support him. That sort of sounds touchy-feely, but I think you have to really have good people. If you have a good team, you are halfway there. Even more importantly, perhaps, you have to have a really strong cofounder. Someone you can rely on in a very fundamental way.
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Livingston: Did you feel that way about Peter when you started Levchin: We hit it off really quickly. I have this IQ bias anybody really smart,
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I will figure out a way to deal with. It was very positive. Both of us are really competitive and really not mistrusting, but not willing to assume that the other guy knows what he s talking about. When we met, we sort of hung out socially, and then one night we had this showdown where we sat around in this caf for like 8 hours and traded puzzles to see who could solve puzzles faster just this nonstop mental beating on each other. I think after that we realized that we each couldn t be total idiots since we could solve puzzles pretty quickly. We would constantly try to come up with ones that the other person wouldn t be able to solve. I m really into puzzles. I m not a very quick solver, so I tend to take a long time. Not always, but on occasion, I will take a lot longer than an average time to solve it, but I almost always will succeed. I think in a big way, the reason for PayPal s success is that I got very lucky with Peter as a cofounder, and I d like to think he got pretty lucky with me.
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Livingston: Who did you learn things from Levchin: There are different segments to running a startup. Different people
taught me different things. A lot of the top management people at PayPal were really good. It was very fun and meaningful to work with them and pick up their various interests and skills. I never really paid much attention in college in econ, and I never really took any accounting classes. One night I came over to our CFO s office, and I said, I really don t understand a lot of the balance sheet math and all this stuff. I m pretty good at math, so I should be able to get it, but I just don t understand the language, so teach me accounting. We had this crazy multihour session where he was explaining accounting to me. I learned debits and credits and why certain things are called what they are; liabilities versus assets and capital. Until then, I had no idea. It was maybe a year into the company, and I thought, I really should understand this balance sheet stuff. It s kind of an art. I had never really raised money before, so when Peter was raising money, I was tagging along as much as I could, trying to pick that up.
Livingston: Did you have a good relationship with your investors Levchin: It s one of these things where, if you look back now, when everyone
walked away with a ton of money, everyone loves everyone. We had this great time, etc. It s generally more complicated than that where, when the company is doing well, they re happy and they think they re great. The company s not doing well; they ve overpaid and they ve been too nice. It s half and half. I think I was blissfully spared a lot of it because Peter managed the board much more than I did. I was on the board all through my tenure there, but a lot of the more unpleasant conversations were handled by Peter. I got involved more as the fraud thing grew. For a long time, it was one of these things where I was really much younger than now my whole brand both to the investors and to our
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