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Peter Norvig to read I just want to find the three paragraphs that I need. Show me that and then I ll move on. I think that s a real change. Seibel: I wonder if there isn t a way to write modern-style literate programming. Certainly Knuth s tools give you an index and beautiful crossreferencing. I wonder if perhaps a modern approach to literate programming just would organize the book differently both as a whole program and as a bunch of pieces that you can understand in bits Norvig: I don t know. I think he was solving a problem that doesn t exist anymore to a large degree. Part of it was because he wanted to put it in a linear order rather than in a web-like or a searchable order. I think part of it was the limitations. I think he was using Pascal originally. And there it s pretty strict in terms of what had to be declared first and not necessarily in the order you want. Modern languages are more free in that order, so I think it s less of an issue now. Seibel: You mentioned reading Strachey s checkers code in Scientific American. And in your Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years essay, you talk about the importance of reading code. What code did you read coming up Norvig: I read a lot of the Symbolics s code, because that was available when I was at Berkeley. Seibel: Was that just because it was available and was interesting Or were you reading it to try to understand some behaviors you were observing Norvig: Both. I sometimes just tried to figure out how things work and sometimes I needed it to solve a problem. Seibel: So when you re reading just for general edification, how do you approach that Norvig: I think it s probably interest-driven. Gee, this file system allows you to read files across the net using the same protocol that you use locally on your machine I wonder how it does that And so you ll say, Maybe it s in the open function. You look there, and say, Oh, that calls this other
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Peter Norvig thing. And you look there, and eventually you say, Oh, this is how it does it. Seibel: Have you read any of Knuth s literate programs in book form Norvig: I ve certainly picked up the books and flipped through them. I could say I glanced at them, but I haven t studied them. Seibel: What about The Art of Computer Programming Some of the people I ve talked to on this have absolutely read it from cover to cover. Some people have it on the shelf and use it as a reference. And some people just have it on the shelf. Norvig: At one point I had it as my monitor stand because it was one of the biggest set of books I had, and it was just the right height. That was nice because it was always there, and I guess then I was more prone to use it as a reference because it was just right in front of me. Seibel: But you had to lift up the monitor every time you wanted to look at it Norvig: No, I had the box set. You had to pull hard, but you could pull one of the box. Now I m less likely to use any book for reference I m just likely to do a search. Seibel: Just because it s more convenient Norvig: It s convenient. I think it s also that I m probably more goaloriented. Knuth is good if you say, I want to know everything about this subject. But usually I m saying, I want to know if A is better than B, or, I want to know the asymptotic complexity of this, and once I ve got that, I don t need all the details of how we got there. Seibel: As a programmer, do you consider yourself a scientist, an engineer, an artist, or a craftsman Norvig: Well, I know when you compare the various titles of books and so on, I always thought the craft was the right answer. So I thought art was a little pretentious because the purpose of art is to be beautiful or to have an emotional contact or emotional impact, and I don t feel like that s anything
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