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Guy Steele Seibel: Well, I may like vanilla ice cream and you like chocolate, but we don t fight about it. But people fight about programming languages. Steele: Well, that s the human social phenomenon of wanting to belong to the winning side. And, no, I don t think it s worth fighting over, but I think it s reasonable to have opinions about what is a more effective tool for a given task. The one thing I am reasonably convinced of is that it s a mistake to think that one language solves all problems better than any other language, or even equally well. I really think that there are application areas for which particular languages are better suited. I feel perfectly free, when doing algorithm design, to use a hodgepodge of different languages. As long as I m just communicating with myself I will go to a whiteboard and write fragments of Java and Fortran with APL mixed in. It doesn t bother me in the least as long as I can sort out what I ve written afterwards. For a particular piece of the algorithm the notation is buying me something that I think another language wouldn t be nearly as clear or useful for. The problem is, if you come up with a notation that s good at one small set of ideas, you still want to put that in the context of a complete programming language and you have to build something around it and make it complete and if you don t do a good job of everything, then you end up with a lopsided language that s great at this one idea and kind of clunky for the other stuff. On the other hand, it s really hard to make a language that s great at everything, in part just because there are only so many concise notations to go around. There s this Huffman encoding problem. If you make something concise, something is going to have to be more verbose as a consequence. So in designing a language, one of the things you think about is, What are the things I want to make very easy to say and very easy to get right But with the understanding that, having used up characters or symbols for that purpose, you re going to have made something else a little bit harder to say. Seibel: One way to resolve that is the way Lisp does make everything uniformly semiconcise. Where the uniformity has the advantage of allowing
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Guy Steele users of the language to easily add their own equally uniform, semiconcise, first-class syntactic extensions. Yet a lot of folks resist the s-expression syntax. The smug Lisp weenie view of the world is, Some people just don t get it; if they did they would see the brilliance of the solution. Are you a smug enough Lisp weenie to think that if people really understood Lisp they would not be put off by the parentheses Steele: No. I don t think I ve got the standing to be smug. If anything, because I have learned so many languages I think I understand better than a lot of people the fact that different languages can offer different things. And there are good reasons to make choices among them rather than to hold up one language and say, This is the winner. There are certain kinds of projects that I would not want to tackle with anything other than Lisp because I m interested in the set of tools it provides me. For instance, ready-made input/output if I m willing to conform to Lisp s syntax, then I ve already got readers and printers built that are adequate for some kinds of jobs. This in turn allows you to do some kinds of rapid prototyping. On the other hand, if it s important that I customize the I/O to an existing specific format, then Lisp might not be such a good tool. Or else I might have to build some kind of transducer in some language, Lisp or otherwise, to get it over to the Lisp world. Seibel: What languages have you used seriously It must be a long list for you. Steele: I earned my first money programming in COBOL. I was still a highschool student and subcontracted to someone who was doing a report-card generator system for another school system, so there wasn t any conflict of interest there. I used Fortran, IBM 1130 assembly language, PDP-10 machine language, APL. I guess I can t claim to have used SNOBOL seriously. Certainly C, C++, Bliss, the DECsystems implementation language that came out of Carnegie Mellon. GNAL, which is based on Red, I ve used quite seriously. Several different varieties of Lisp, including Common Lisp, Scheme, Maclisp. The version of Lisp that Dick Gabriel and I built for the S-1, S-1 Lisp, which was one of the four or five that merged to make Common Lisp. I developed Connection Machine Lisp but I m not sure I could be said to have done
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