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Dan Ingalls that you did in BASIC. You had a couple pages of notes from Alan Kay that you had to make real. What did you do Ingalls: I just started typing in code. I think the first thing was to validate the execution model. There were just a couple of basic structures that were needed, the equivalent of a stack frame. So I just made, it must have been an array, in BASIC, to do that and put together enough that would execute a piece of code. Typically with something like that the word that s coming to mind is you breadboard it you just do what you need to do to put a structure in place that s the structure you think you re going to want to interpret and then try to make it work. I remember the first thing we got to run was six factorial. It s a really simple example but it involves the process of dynamic lookup and creating new stack frames. And then once you ve got that working, you come to understand how things are going to go and you find out what s difficult. Eventually you figure out where the time s going and so you improve all those things. Then, in this particular case, once that worked there was the problem of putting a layer on it which is essentially a parser so you can type text into it and get it to go into that structure that you breadboarded. Then you ve got a little environment and you start learning things. Then you say, OK, I see how this works, I m going to write it in assembly code, or whatever else. Then you suddenly realize, Oh, yeah, we need automatic storage management. So how are we going to do that It s one thing after another. Seibel: So have there ever been things where that sort of just-in-time development either failed to work, or you knew it would not work and you had to do a design in some different way Ingalls: Well, you always do what you can and when you re stuck you always turn away and reflect. In the spectrum of implementers, I probably err on the side of just making things happen. A lot of that is because I get so much of a thrill bringing
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Dan Ingalls things to life that it doesn t even matter if it s wrong at first. The point is, that as soon as it comes to life it starts telling you what it is. And you find out that, yes, maybe you could have done the storage management completely differently, but the really important things you re learning have nothing to do with that. The first Smalltalks I did used reference counting for garbage collection; probably it would have been better to use something else. For a while there was a certain amount of pain associated with reference counts. But that didn t matter the point was the system was up and alive and running and we were learning all this other great stuff about how you put together things with objects, what it s like to do numerics in an object-oriented style all that other real progress. Seibel: I don t know that you re that far out on the spectrum, at least among the people I ve talked to for this book. Though Don Knuth did write TeX in pencil in a notebook for six months before he typed in a line of code and he said he saved time because he didn t have to bother writing scaffolding to test all the code he was developing because he just wrote the whole thing. Ingalls: I believe that. There are people who operate completely differently. But for a given person I think that s just how they have to operate. I know I ve wasted some time one way or another. But there s also this side of it, and it s sort of the archetypal aspect of exploratory programming, which is if it gets you more quickly to an environment that you can learn from, you may find out that some of your original goals don t even matter. What s much more important is that other thing over there. And that becomes a whole new focus. Coming back to this need to reflect and get things right, there have been a couple of times when I ve done that. The example that comes to my mind is BitBlt. When I decided to do the thing that became BitBlt, it had this challenge to it that I had to sit and noodle for a night or two. Which is, how are you going to efficiently move all these bits on bit boundaries across word boundaries That was a case where there weren t any alternatives out in the world for me to work with. And so I thought about that and thought about that and came up with a simple model. It wasn t somebody else s spec but I had looked at all the places we were doing line drawing and text display and scrolling so I had a spec in my mind for what it needed to do.
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