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Dan Ingalls Ingalls: You ve got to have a logical mind. But I spent a lot of time in the country in Virginia while learning about computers. I always thought that if I wanted to start a computer company in the mountains of Virginia, I d go find the mechanics. Except in certain fairly esoteric parts, the math isn t near as important as logic and intuition. I think of a lot of it as being more architectural: the way the graphics work together with the models; the way things need to be updated or cached. That s not esoteric mathematics. That said, I do view it as being very much a part of the field of mathematics. To me, the really exciting thing about computers is they allowed mathematics to become a synthetic, not just an analytic art. What I have so much fun doing day to day is a mathematical kind of thing, but it s creative, generative, synthetic. Seibel: You say you re not a big reader. Are there any books you d recommend Ingalls: No. And I m sure I m in the minority this way. I was not a big reader as a kid. I would occasionally read things thoroughly and not be interrupted until I was done. There are some papers, absolutely, and I guess with them come some books. Val Schorre s paper on META II is one of them. There is the LISP 1.5 book. There s APL, but I didn t find Iverson s book to be at all a good way to learn it. A mathematician probably would have. I can t even remember what I read to learn about it from. But I loved it. So I think spending a bit of time in that language would be like a book to read. Likewise, Smalltalk. Seibel: So do you still enjoy programming as much as you used to when you started Ingalls: Yeah, the programming itself. The last couple of years have been interesting because I ve been taken away from the environment that I got so used to Smalltalk and then Squeak where the tools are just really great. I ve had to step back a little bit, working with JavaScript in browsers and conventional development environments. It sometimes takes me longer to debug stuff than it used to, but the basic process of getting an idea and making it happen I still really enjoy. Seibel: Do you feel at all that programming is a young person s game
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Dan Ingalls Ingalls: Not really, no. There s something about being able to survey all the stuff that s going on, and some of that endless energy that I don t feel I have the way I used to. But I still love to just take a problem and sit down and pore over it until it s right. There s an analogy here: I tried to learn to play piano fairly late in life. People said, Oh, you should learn when you re young. You learn so much quicker. Although I didn t go very far, my conclusion was that it isn t that young people learn that much faster; it s just they have more time. When I would put time in, I made progress. I feel a bit the same thing with programming. When I look back on earlier times in my life, I had all the time I wanted. I would just work and work. Now there are other things going on in my life and I ve got responsibilities that aren t just programming. That undermines a bit of that intense focus. Seibel: Leaving aside the amount of time you get to spend on it, doesn t programming require a certain intensity and focus People talk about flow and how if you get interrupted every 15 minutes, you never get anything done because it takes that long to even start getting the stuff in your brain sorted out. Ingalls: That reminds me of something I said to somebody way back at PARC. I was starting to have some other responsibilities besides just hacking Smalltalk, but we were also making a lot of progress in making it a really productive system. I kidded that I was racing to improve the Smalltalk environment so that I could continue to get reasonable work done in increasingly short amounts of time. So I d gotten to where in 15 minutes I could sit down and actually do something useful. The other part of it is that you work with other people. I work with younger people and it s great maybe I spend a bit more time thinking at the level of goals and politics and arranging to make things happen, and they re making up for what I lack in available time for that deep, deep dive. Seibel: You have a reputation of being a great guy to work for, when you re leading a project. How do you lead a team that makes people productive and happy Ingalls: I love what I do. And it s fun to share with other people. These activities can go arbitrarily deep or wide, so it s easy to find things for
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