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Dan Ingalls successive generations of Smalltalk. We had a theory for how to make something work. We built a system that worked that way. We used it for a while and we found out, Oh, it d be good if we did this and this and this differently, and we built a new one. So we kept going around that circle, which is just like scientific research and progress. I feel like an artist when I m working because I have this idea in my head and I just want to make it real. I imagine a sculptor having the same feeling, bringing a piece to life. In this context, I view engineer and craftsman as being almost identical. It s just that an engineer is a craftsman in a technological field. There are times when I feel that way, too, but they are different times a very different time. It s when I m doing something low-level. From my history, I worked on the deepest parts of BitBlt or the Smalltalk byte-code engine and those are very craftsman-like things. And I had the luxury to do those over again a couple of times to get them really right and that s a craft. Seibel: The difference I see between engineers and craftsmen is the engineers are the folks who say, We should be like the guys who build bridges. Bridges don t fall down. They have a repeatable engineering process. The craftsmen say, This is more like woodworking. The wood is unique every time and there are rules of thumb but no method that can guarantee certain results. Ingalls: So in that regard I may be less of an engineer. I think that the ways in which I stress systems are different. I know there are people who do serious enterprise programming systems. That s not a focus or a passion of mine. Of the four you mentioned, the engineer is probably the least, then craftsman, and then this funny combination between artist and scientist at the top. Seibel: You mentioned that you left industry for a while and then you came back. Were you tired of computers or was it just other things in life Ingalls: It was other things in my life. It was also a nice break, and I picked a good time for it, because when I came back, it didn t seem to me like things had changed that much, except everything was a hundred times faster.
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Dan Ingalls Seibel: Do you have any recommendations for people who want to be programmers Ingalls: Well, I think a decent course in computer science should be good. The way I would organize that is to learn several different languages that have various different strengths. Smalltalk s got a lot of strengths but it s not the answer to everything. There s logic programming. There s functional programming. Actually, you can do Smalltalk in a functional style, and so that s covered there pretty much. But like what I said about Lotus 1-2-3 and translating English to pig Latin, I think it s worth it to take several different computing environments and then pick a problem to solve in them, which either reveals the strength of the language or encourages you to somehow escape from it. Seibel: Do you think programming and therefore the kind of people who can succeed as programmers has changed Can you be a great programmer operating at a certain high level without ever learning assembly, or C, and maybe without ever learning the algorithms you would get from reading Knuth, because these days you re using some high-level language that includes a lot of those algorithms in libraries Ingalls: Different people have different levels that they need to go to to feel good about what they re working with. So I think somebody can be entirely confident maybe using a collections library without having programmed it themselves. It just means they re operating at another level. Lord knows, I wouldn t expect anybody who intends to work with graphics to have had to write BitBlt. You don t have to do NAND gates; you can use assembly language. I think you can work at any of these levels. If the challenge calls on you for it, you re going to have to go deeper, and if your interest is sparked, you will want to go deeper. Seibel: So do you think most programmers today, who may be working at a fairly high level, in a different environment would have learned assembly and microcode Or do you think the kind of talents that people need to be successful programmers are changing Ingalls: Yes and no. It is in a way the same up and down at any level and hopefully it will come to appear even more so. But there are areas right
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