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Jamie Zawinski because that gave me point two: I didn t have to write it. But mostly the feedback I was giving them was just, does it work and does it make sense. Seibel: On the flip side, when you were the less-experienced programmer, what did your mentors do that was helpful Zawinski: I guess the most important thing is they d recognize when it was time to level up. When I went to work for Fahlman I was given some silly little busy work. And eventually got given tasks that were a little more significant not that they were significant at all really. Seibel: I think you talked about Skef, who just hovered and said, Wrong! Was that balanced, perhaps, by someone else who was a little more nurturing Zawinski: Well, he wasn t completely a cave man. He would actually tell me things, too. I know I ended up doing a lot of reading of code and asking questions. I think one thing that s really important is to not be afraid of your ignorance. If you don t understand how something works, ask someone who does. A lot of people are skittish about that. And that doesn t help anybody. Not knowing something doesn t mean you re dumb it just means you don t know it yet. Seibel: Did you read code mostly because it was something you were working on, or was it just something you wanted to know how it worked Zawinski: Yeah. Just poking around I wonder how that works. The impulse to take things apart is a big part of what gets people into this line of work. Seibel: Were you actually one of those kids who took toasters apart Zawinski: Yeah. I made a telephone and learned how to dial with a telegraph tapper that I made out of a tin can. When I was little I had these old books I got at a garage sale or something, like Boy s Own Science Book from the 30s, and I remember getting a really big kick out of those. That was really hacker culture in the 20s and 30s where
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Jamie Zawinski they re showing how to wire up a telegraph between your room and the barn and making Leyden jars. Seibel: That brings me to another of my standard questions: do you, as a programmer, think of yourself as a scientist or an engineer or an artist or a craftsman or something else Zawinski: Well, definitely not a scientist or engineer because those have very formal connotations. I don t do a lot of math; I don t draw blueprints; I don t prove things. I guess somewhere between craftsman and artist, depending on what the project is. I write a lot of screen savers that s not craftsman; that s making pretty pictures. Somewhere in that area. Seibel: Do you feel like you taught yourself computer science or did you just learn to program Zawinski: Well, I certainly picked up a bunch of computer science over the years. But learning to program was the goal. Making the machine do something was the goal and the computer-science side of it was a means to an end. Seibel: Did you ever feel that as a lack did you ever wish you had been exposed to things in a more systematic way Zawinski: There were definitely times, especially at Lucid, where it d be obvious that there s this whole big black hole that these guys are talking about that I just completely missed because I never needed to know it. And I d then I d pick up the terminology and have a basic idea what they re talking about and maybe do a little bit of reading on it if it was something I needed to know. So there were definitely times, especially early on, where I felt like, Oh my god, I don t know anything. It would just be embarrassing but that was just being insecure. Being the young kid around all these people with PhDs Aaah, I don t know anything! I m an idiot! How did I bluff my way into this
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