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Jamie Zawinski Though my life certainly would have turned out very differently if I had spent a lot more time in school it was a moment in time when I got to do the things I did. Seibel: Did you ever feel the opposite, where you felt like the computer scientists around you just didn t understand actual programming as well as you did Zawinski: I felt like that a lot, but really that s not so much about thinking, Wow, you guys have been barking up the wrong tree. as, Wow, we re just not interested in the same things. I don t want to be a mathematician but I m not going to criticize someone who is a mathematician. It s weird that people often confuse those two pursuits. People who are into very theoretical computer science are thought of in this same way as people who are shipping desktop applications. And they don t really have a lot to do with each other. Seibel: You re largely self-taught. Do you have any advice for selftaught programmers Zawinski: That s a really hard question because the world s so different now. I always feel weird talking about, Here s what I did. I don t know if that was the right way to do it. But people always hear it as, Be like me. I stumbled into this it all just sort of happened. I made some decisions and they led to others and here we are. Every now and then I get an email from someone that s basically, I want to be a programmer; what do I do Or, Should I go to college or not How can I answer that I would have had very strong opinions about this if you asked me in 1986. But someone today couldn t take the same path that I took because that path doesn t even exist anymore. Ten years ago I would have said absolutely the first thing you have to do is learn assembly language. You have to learn how the machine
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Jamie Zawinski actually works. Does that matter any more I don t even know. Maybe it does. But possibly not. If the way software is going to be ten years from now is all web applications or a piece of distributed code in some rented computing cluster that s moving around between a dozen different Google servers and spawning other copies of itself and then merging back together once it s got results, does anyone need to know assembly language any more Is that so abstracted away that it doesn t matter I don t know. I was kind of freaked out when I realized that there are people graduating with CS degrees who d never written C. They started in Java and they stayed there. That just seemed bizarre and wrong. But I don t know. Maybe it s not wrong. Maybe that s the caveman thoughts: Back in my day, we programmed with a nine-volt battery and a steady hand! Seibel: What about books Are there particular computer-science or programming books that everyone should read Zawinski: I actually haven t read very many of those. The one I always recommend is Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, which a lot of people are afraid of because it s Lispy, but I think does a really good job of teaching programming without teaching a language. I think a lot of introductory-level stuff focuses on syntax and I definitely saw that in the classes I had in high school and in the intro classes at Carnegie-Mellon during my brief time there. This is not teaching people to program; this is teaching people where the semicolon goes. That seems like the kind of thing that s going to scare people away from it more than anything, because that s not the interesting part. Not even to someone who knows what they re doing. There was another book what was it called about debugging, written by someone from Microsoft. It was about how to use asserts effectively. I remember thinking that was a really good book, not because I learned anything from it, but because it was the book you wish your idiot coworker had read.
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