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L Peter Deutsch the rapid-prototyping, rapid-development world. It s wonderful for singleperson projects that never go outside that person s hands. It s awful if you want software to become an asset; if you want to share software with other people. So I think that s the real weakness of the Smalltalk development approach and a serious one. The second reason I like Python is that and maybe this is just the way my brain has changed over the years I can t keep as much stuff in my head as I used to. It s more important for me to have stuff in front of my face. So the fact that in Smalltalk you effectively cannot put more than one method on the screen at a time drives me nuts. As far as I m concerned the fact that I edit Python programs with Emacs is an advantage because I can see more than ten lines worth at a time. I ve talked with the few of my buddies that are still working at VisualWorks about open-sourcing the object engine, the just-in-time code generator, which, even though I wrote it, I still think is better than a lot of what s out there. Gosh, here we have Smalltalk, which has this really great codegeneration machinery, which is now very mature it s about 20 years old and it s extremely reliable. It s a relatively simple, relatively retargetable, quite efficient just-in-time code generator that s designed to work really well with non type-declared languages. On the other hand, here s Python, which is this wonderful language with these wonderful libraries and a slowas-mud implementation. Wouldn t it be nice if we could bring the two together Seibel: Wasn t that sort of the idea behind your pycore project, to reimplement Python in Smalltalk Deutsch: It was. I got it to the point where I realized it would be a lot more work than I thought to actually make it work. The mismatches between the Python object model and the Smalltalk object model were bad enough that there were things that could not be simply mapped one-for-one but had to be done through extra levels of method calls and this, that, and the other. Even at that, Smalltalk with just-in-time code generation was, for code that was just written in Python, still in the same range as the C-coded interpreter. So the idea that I had in mind was that if it had been possible to

L Peter Deutsch open-source the Smalltalk code generator, taking that code generator and adapting it to work well with the Python object model and the Python data representation would not have been a huge deal. But it can t be done. Eliot Miranda, who s probably the most radical of my buddies associated with VisualWorks, tried, and Cincom said, Nope, it s a strategic asset, we can t open-source it. Seibel: Well, you re the guy who says software should be treated as a capital asset. Deutsch: But that doesn t necessarily mean that it s always your best strategy to prevent other people from using it. Seibel: So in addition to being a Smalltalker from way back, you were also an early Lisp hacker. But you re not using it any more either. Deutsch: My PhD thesis was a 600-page Lisp program. I m a very heavyduty Lisp hacker from PDP-1 Lisp, Alto Lisp, Byte Lisp, and Interlisp. The reason I don t program in Lisp anymore: I can t stand the syntax. It s just a fact of life that syntax matters. Language systems stand on a tripod. There s the language, there s the libraries, and there are the tools. And how successful a language is depends on a complex interaction between those three things. Python has a great language, great libraries, and hardly any tools. Seibel: Where tools includes the actual implementation of the language Deutsch: Sure, let s put them there. Lisp as a language has fabulous properties of flexibility but really poor user values in terms of its readability. I don t know what the status is of Common Lisp libraries is these days, but I think syntax matters a lot. Seibel: Some people love Lisp syntax and some can t stand it. Why is that Deutsch: Well, I can t speak for anyone else. But I can tell you why I don t want to work with Lisp syntax anymore. There are two reasons. Number one, and I alluded to this earlier, is that the older I ve gotten, the more important it is to me that the density of information per square inch in front