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Ken Thompson Seibel: And presumably part of the reason writing programs directly in assembly is less important these days is because compilers have gotten better. Thompson: No. I think it s mostly because the machines have gotten a lot better. Compilers stink. You look at the code coming out of GCC and it s awful. It s really not good. And it s slow; oh, man. I mean, the compiler itself is over 20 passes. It s just monstrously slow, but computers have gotten 1,000 times faster since GCC came out. So it may seem like it s getting faster because it s not getting slower as much as computers are getting faster underneath it. Seibel: On a somewhat related note, what about garbage collection With Java, GC has finally made it into the mainstream. As Dennis Ritchie once said, C is actively hostile to garbage collection. Is it good that folks are moving toward garbage-collected languages is it a technology that deserves to finally be in mainstream use Thompson: I don t know. I m schizophrenic on the subject. If you re writing an operating system or a C compiler or something that s used by lots and lots of people, I think garbage collection is a mistake, almost. It s a cheat for you where you can do it by hand and do it better much better. What you re doing is your sloughing your task, your job, making it slower for your users. So I think it s a mistake in an operating system. It almost just doesn t fit in an operating system. But if you are writing a hack program to do a job, get an answer and then throw the program away, it s beautiful. It takes a layer of stuff you don t want to think about, at a cost you can afford, because computers are so fast, and it s nothing but a win-win-win position. So I m really schizophrenic on this subject. Part of the problem is there are different garbage-collection algorithms and they have different properties massively different properties. So you re writing some really general-purpose thing like an operating system if you re going to write it in a language that garbage-collects underneath, you don t even have the choice of the algorithm for the operating systems. Suppose that you just can t stand big real-time gaps and you have a garbage collector that runs up to some threshold and then does mark and sweep. You re screwed before you start.
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Ken Thompson So if you re doing some general-purpose task that you don t know who your real users are, you just can t do that. Plus, garbage collection fights cache coherency massively. And there s no garbage-collection algorithm that is right for all machines. There are machines where you can speed it up by a factor of five or more by messing around with the cache. They should be tied to the machine much more than they are. Usually they treat them as separate algorithms that have nothing to do with machines, but the cache coherency is very important for garbage-collection algorithms. Seibel: Do you think of yourself as a scientist, an engineer, an artist, a craftsman, or something else Thompson: I don t know. I hate to use the word scientist because I think it s elitist. And implies a PhD. There s no certificate that says scientist on it when you complete the scientist course, so I don t like the term or use it. Engineer, I do have a degree that says engineer on it, so I can use the word engineer. And when I fill out an occupation I either put engineer or programmer because I can justify those. But mostly I just don t worry about it. Seibel: Well, leaving aside what you call yourself, who do you feel the most affinity with Is it a physicist, a guy who builds bridges, a painter, or a carpenter Thompson: Kind of the lower things. I believe a craftsman but with a certain amount of artistry to keep it alive. Seibel: How do you identify talented programmers Thompson: It s just enthusiasm. You ask them what s the most interesting program they worked on. And then you get them to describe it and its algorithms and what s going on. If they can t withstand my questioning on their program, then they re not good. If I can attack them or find problems with their algorithms and their solutions and they can t defend it, being much more personally involved than I am, then no. At the same time you can get a sense of enthusiasm. It s not something you ask directly, but in the conversation you ll come with this enthusiasm-ometer, and that is tremendously helpful for me. That s how I interview. I ve been told that it s devastating to be on the receiving side of that.
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