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Brad Fitzpatrick Seibel: And are there skills apart from programming itself that you think would-be programmers should develop Fitzpatrick: There s communication, but I m not sure that s something you can really practice. Deal with people on mailing lists a lot. Written communication style goes a long way. But that s a general life thing, right There was some study about who was successful after high school. Was it the smart kids or the social kids It turned out that it was the social kids who ended up making all the money in life, not the people with the good grades. I thought that was interesting. Seibel: That seems to be a bit of a change from the past. It used to be programmers could be gnomes hiding in an office. These days it s all mailing lists and collaboration. Fitzpatrick: Well, at the places I ve worked, either on open source or at companies, everyone depends on each other. The motivating factor is, I m going to write this code because I know you re going to be needing it in two weeks or I m going to be needing yours in two weeks. There s always a human level. Seibel: People have claimed that there are orders of magnitude differences in productivity between the best and worst programmers. Has that been your experience Fitzpatrick: Yeah, but it s probably like that in every field. It s how much experience you have. It s not often the case where I know of two people who do the same sort of programming and have been doing it the same amount of time, but differ by a factor of ten times. It seems like if you re not getting better all the time, you re probably getting frustrated and you drop out. I guess there are the people who just do it for a job but don t really enjoy it. Which is OK. But it s kind of weird to compare those people with people who are hardcore programmers. What s ten times more productive when one person works ten times the hours and thinks about it nonstop and the other person just does it at his job
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Brad Fitzpatrick Seibel: You just mentioned taking a scientist s approach to debugging. Do you consider yourself a scientist, an engineer, an artist, or a craftsman Fitzpatrick: Either scientist or engineer. Probably more engineer. I would say scientist was second, but only in the sense of the scientific method of changing one thing at a time and how you diagnose problems. Engineer for the design aspect of things. I definitely have friends who call themselves artists or craftsmen. I ve never thought of myself as that. Seibel: On the other hand, there s a lot of engineering envy in software. You hear the jokes about, If people built skyscrapers the way we build software, the first woodpecker would destroy civilization. Do you think building software is a well-understood engineering discipline Fitzpatrick: No. I don t think it s there yet. You don t need a license, right, to write code. Not that I want tons of regulation, but it would be nice to know that some of these PHP programmers with these XSS exploits aren t the same people writing the air-traffic-control system. I d like there to be some official line between those people. I have a friend who s a structural engineer and he went to school forever and took all this engineering certification stuff. It s kind of comforting to know that the people who build the bridges I m on studied this shit forever and took tons of tests and stayed up all the time studying. Seibel: But what test could you give a programmer that would give you confidence that they can write software that will work Fitzpatrick: I don t know. It s kind of scary. Seibel: Even without licensing, do you think programmers have any sort of special ethical responsibilities to society We re arguably a profession, and professions have codes of conduct. Fitzpatrick: You shouldn t kill anyone. Like with flight-control software. But that s kind of a rare case. I would like to ask that everyone is consistent on their credit-card forms to like let me put in fucking spaces or hyphens. Computers are good at removing that shit. Like don t tell me how to format my numbers. But there s no ethics there. Just stupidity.
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