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Douglas Crockford Seibel: An aspect of programming that you seem to keep running up against is that while we are unbound by physical constraints we get tied down by accidents of history. A lot of your proposals for subsetting JavaScript and your version of HTML5 seem to be attempts to fix these kinds of historical accidents. Crockford: Yeah, and some of it is quixotic. I know that a lot of the things that I m hoping to accomplish are not achievable. I m aware of that. But every once in a while something works. Like when XML was proposed as a data-interchange format, my first impression of that was, My god, this is way, way, way too complicated. We don t need all of this stuff just to move data back and forth. And so I proposed another way to do it, and it won. JSON is now the preferred way of doing data transfer in Ajax applications and it s winning in a whole lot of other applications. And it s just really simple. So that restores my faith in humanity, that maybe we can finally get some of these things right. But you can t have everybody going off, making up their own thing. That doesn t work. That doesn t do anybody any good. But one person has to make up a thing and everyone else has to figure out how to agree which one of those we re all going to get behind. JSON was a different kind of accident of history. Seibel: Overall, do you think that the software industry is a brilliant engine of innovation or a horrible mess Crockford: I m trying to think of a nice way to say, Horrible mess. I d think generally software has gotten better. Not at the same pace that Moore lets the hardware got better. We track way, way slow compared to him, so it takes us 20 years to double our efficiency in software development. But we have seen improvement. Most of our improvement is due to the fact that we don t have to make it fit anymore. We don t have to make it fast anymore. So that should have liberated us to just making it good. But we don t spend enough time doing that, I think. Seibel: So if we are, however nicely you put it, a horrible mess, what could we do to not be such a mess
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Douglas Crockford Crockford: That s what I m trying to figure out. A lot of it I think has to do with the way that we create standards. The reason why things are working as well as they are now is because the Net works; all the benefits that came, came from being able to tie everything together and have that happen pretty reliably. But you don t have to scratch it very deep to find places where we got that wrong, where we could ve got it better. The dilemma is, how do we fix this stuff in place Anytime we change a software standard, it s an act of violence. It is disruptive. It will cause stuff to fail. It will cause cost and harm to people. So we need to be really careful when we revise the standards because there is that cost. We have to make sure that we re adding so much value to offset that cost. From what I see of the way that standards are being manipulated right now, that s not occurring. Standard changes are being motivated by we want to do it or because it d be neat or some other motivation which is not necessarily closely related to creating a lot of value for the world. So I m struggling with that. How do we get better at that Seibel: You seem to lean toward specifying less. That, obviously, is a way to avoid over specifying things and standardizing things that you re going to regret later. But if less is specified in standards, then people have to make more stuff up and you re going to have a big pile of de facto standards as people try to settle on OK ways of getting stuff done. Is making standards simpler really going to fix the problem, if the complexity just pops up elsewhere Crockford: What we really need to be doing is getting better at predicting what we re really going to need in the future. Maybe we have to wait for time travel before we finally start getting this stuff right. In the meantime, I look on that experimentation and proliferation of possible approaches as a positive thing in that maybe the right approach to take to standardization is to figure out which of those are the best thought out, which are the most maintainable, which are the most growable, and pick that. Rather than a standards committee trying to guess the best way to do it, we pick from examples in the marketplace what is actually demonstrably the best way to do it. Seibel: But you feel like overall we re making some progress
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