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We re overdue on the next one. We ve been at object for a while. You could argue it was Smalltalk-80. You could go back a little bit earlier, but we ve been sitting on these ideas for a long time. I think the next leap, we don t know what the name of it is yet, but I think it s something related to mash-ups where we can casually take bits of program and put them together and immediately make new programs. We ve been talking for decades about a model of programming in which we snapped programs together like LEGO and make stuff. That hasn t happened yet. But I think it is starting to happen now and the place it s happening is in JavaScript, which is the least likely place. Seibel: When you re hiring programmers, how do you recognize the good ones Crockford: The approach I ve taken now is to do a code reading. I invite the candidate to bring in a piece of code he s really proud of and walk us through it. Seibel: And what are you looking for Crockford: I m looking for quality of presentation. I want to see what he thinks is something he s proud of. I want to see evidence that in fact he is the author of the thing that he s defending. I find that is much more effective than asking them to solve puzzles or trivia questions. I see all that kind of stuff as useless. But how effectively they can communicate, that s a skill that I m hiring for. Seibel: Do you have any advice for self-taught programmers Crockford: Yeah, read a lot. There are good books out there. Find the good ones and read those. And if you re doing web development, find the best sites and look at their code. Although I m a little reluctant to give that advice yet. Most web developers learned to do web development by doing view source, and until fairly recently, most of the source that was out there was very bad. So you had a generation of programmers who were raised on really bad examples, thinking bad code was the way to write.
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Douglas Crockford That s getting better now, but there s still so much bad stuff out there that I m reluctant to give that advice yet. Seibel: What about advice for someone who s actually getting a C.S. degree who wants to work as a programmer Crockford: I would focus on the communication aspect. Learn to write; learn to read. My advice to everybody is pretty much the same, to read and write. I generally don t hire for specific skills. Until very recently, you couldn t hire good JavaScript programmers. They were extremely rare. There are a lot of really good ones out there now, but that s a fairly recent thing. So until that happened, I would just hire for quality. Are you a good Java programmer, a good C programmer, or whatever I don t care. I just want to know that you know how to put an algorithm together, you understand data structures, and you know how to document it. If you can do that, you should be able to figure out JavaScript. Seibel: Have you ever had problems with that People who ve been successful in one language sometimes have a hard time giving up their old ways, even when working in a new language where they don t really make sense. Crockford: I have with, say, Windows programmers. Windows has a number of very complicated APIs and you can spend years just understanding how those APIs work. And that s pretty much all you do, is you know that one API. You can write a window handle but there s not much else you can do. I tend not to look for that kind of overspecialization unless I have a really specific niche. Generally, I prefer generalists. I want someone who s capable of learning any of those APIs but isn t necessarily skilled in any one. Seibel: You said earlier that you got into computers because you thought they would make the world a better place. Crockford: That s my intention. Seibel: How s that working out
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