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Brendan Eich and now things seem to have settled down with the Harmony plan for unifying the two. Was the ES4 proposal your chance to show the world that, Look, I m a really smart guy and JavaScript is a really a good language Eich: No, I don t think so. I know Doug may think that. I don t think Doug knows me that well, but the thing is, I m not really looking for respect, especially from the Java-heads or the trailing edge. Seibel: Was ES4 your brainchild Was it your take on, knowing all that you know now, what you want JavaScript to be Eich: No. It was definitely a collaborative effort and in some ways a compromise because we were working with Adobe, who had done a derivative language called ActionScript. Their version three was the one that was influencing the fourth-edition proposals. And that was based on Waldemar Horwat s work on the original JavaScript 2/ECMAScript fourthedition proposals in the late 90s, which got mothballed in 2003 when Netscape mostly got laid off and the Mozilla foundation was set up. Waldemar did a good job I gave him the keys to the kingdom in late 97 when I went off to found mozilla.org with Jamie. Waldemar is a huge brain I think he won the Putnam in 87. MIT PhD. He did try and keep the dynamic flavor of the language, but he struggled to add certain programming-in-the-large facilities to it, like namespaces. There s a contrary school which is more pedantic: We should have just a few primitives we can de-sugar our spec to; we can lambda code everything. That s how people should write anyway because that s how I think of things or, That s the best way to think of things. It s very reductionistic and it s not for everybody. Obviously one way to do your own mental proof system is to reduce things, to subset languages. Subsetting is powerful. But to say everyone has to program in this sort of minuscule subset, that s not usable. Seibel: In some of the discussion about ES4, you cited Guy Steele s paper, Growing a Language. Speaking as a Lisper, to me the take-away from that paper was, step one, put a macro system in your language. Then all of this special sugar goes away.
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Brendan Eich Eich: There are two big problems, obviously. C syntax means that you have a much harder time than with s-expression, so you have to define your ASTs and we re going to have to standardize them and that s going to be a pain. Then there s the other problem, which is hygiene is still not quite understood. Dave Herman, who s working with us is doing his thesis or was last I checked on a kind of logic for proving soundness for hygiene, which is, I hope, beneficial. Because we will get to macros. I said this to Doug Crockford a couple years ago when he had me speak at Yahoo! I started talking about the sugar that I was enthusiastic about. He said, Gee, maybe we should do a macro system first, and I said, No, because then we ll take nine years. At the time there was a real risk politically that Microsoft was just not going to cooperate. They came back into ECMA after being asleep and coasting. The new guy, who was from Hyderabad, was very enthusiastic and said, Yes, we will put the CLR into IE8 and JScript.net will be our new implementation of web JavaScript. But I think his enthusiasm went upstairs and then he got told, No, that s not what we re doing. So it led to the great revolt and splitting the committee. So we were concerned that if we went off to do macros we were doing research, and if we were doing research we were not going to have Microsoft engaged and we were not going to be putting competitive pressure on them. So macros have had to wait. I m fine with that so long as we do the right automated grammar checks and we do make sure we can recast all of the sugar as macros when we have macros. But in the meantime there s no reason to starve the users for sugar. It doesn t rot their teeth and it helps them avoid mistakes. Seibel: Back in 1995, what other languages influenced your original design of JavaScript Eich: Self was big, mainly because of the papers that Dave Ungar had just written. I never played with any Self code, but I was just inspired by them. I like Smalltalk and here was somebody taking one idea applied to Smalltalk, which was prototype-based delegation multiple prototypes unlike JavaScript and just running with it as hard as they could. That was inspiring to me because there was both good compiler, VM-level engineering and, I thought, good language design.
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