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Livingston: Did a lot of people not have resources to implement your ideas at
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the time, because the Web was still emerging
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Greenspun: People used to say, Why should we pay you guys $30,000 to $50,000 a month to do this thing, when we can just hire our own programmer What I would tell them is, Each company has one class of stars. In some companies maybe it s the salespeople, and in some companies maybe it s the mechanical engineers. There s going to be one class of people for whom it s really easy to hire more people like that. Hospitals are a good example. If it s a good hospital, the doctors will be good, and it s very easy for them to hire good doctors. But it s hard for them to hire any other kind of person. Hospitals don t have really good advertising people; those people want to work on Madison Avenue. So we would say, You re a very capable person, and you re going to have a very easy time hiring people like yourself. We don t know your business and we d have a hard time hiring someone like you, but we have a very easy time hiring someone like me, who s an MIT-trained computer science nerd. It s cheaper for you to use us, because we have really great programmers, and great programmers are a lot cheaper than mediocre programmers. So even if you give us a profit margin, it s still cheaper than doing it internally. That might not have been true for SAP actually. SAP was a user of our software. They had a lot of good programmers, so they weren t a customer; they just used the software without needing us. Livingston: Tell me a little about the competitive landscape. Greenspun: There was Broadvision. Believe it or not, people didn t agree back
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then on how you did websites. Today, everybody would pretty much agree that the right thing to do is to do whatever Bill Gates or Microsoft says. So you download SQL Server, Visual Studio .NET, and you have a two-tiered system where you have a data model and SQL Server and you have scripts and a scripting language talking to the database. You don t have a lot of elaborate compilation steps. If you change a script, it s written in C# or Visual Basic; the next time you load it, a new definition will be evaluated. Very lightweight programming environment. Most of the engineering is in the database. That s how I started doing things in 1994, but there were lots of companies trying to convince people that that wasn t adequate; that you had to have something really complicated. They would say, What you really need is lots of layers and application servers and you need our software. You don t just download Perl and Apache. You have to buy our system for a million dollars. Broadvision was almost comically difficult to use. It required people to program their web pages in the C++ language, which even a lot of professional programmers find impossible to use. Modifying a website became just as expensive and difficult as it would be to make a change to Microsoft Word, and Microsoft itself is only able to get out a new version every few years. There was also a company called Vignette, and they had a really bad product. They had a product that let you program web pages in Tcl, which was a scripting language. But there were free open source tools that were better and
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Philip Greenspun 323
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let you do the same thing. Why would anybody pay for this But they were selling it. They had hundreds of millions of dollars from their IPO, and we thought, These companies can t just waste all their money forever. Microsoft was another concern. But they also were very, very slow. They finally today have a product called SharePoint, which is somewhat similar to the ArsDigita Community System. One thing that we did which enabled us to be much, much faster than our competitors was that we developed on and released our software from running real-world systems. For example, we would install our release of software on photo.net or on the ArsDigita.com site where the employees and customers were all using it. We picked one site which was a public, well-used website, and we put all our new features on there. If there was a page that was very slow because the SQL query hadn t been tuned properly, we would find out immediately. If there was a user interface that was clumsy and confused the customers, say on the photo.net classifieds, well, 100 classified ads were being posted every day and people would email us saying, We can t figure this out. So we would get immediate feedback, and we could fix it. Then, after a couple weeks of testing the new release on this running service, we would just tar it up in the UNIX file system and produce a distribution, and that was it. We couldn t guarantee that this toolkit would solve all the world s problems, but we could guarantee, at least for something sort of like photo.net on a medium-sized server with a few hundred thousand registered users, that the software would be adequate in performance and adequate in features. It wouldn t be too expensive to support administratively because the user interface wasn t confusing people. By contrast, companies like Microsoft were still developing software for the Web as if the Web didn t exist.
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Livingston: What does that mean Greenspun: Let s say you have a word processor. You send a marketing person
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out to interview people and find out what features they need. Then they take that back to the product manager. The product manager writes up some specs: here are the features we re going to have in the next release. Then they send that to the programmers, who are in a vacuum, who build this thing according to the product manager s specs. When they re done, it goes to QA, but it s not a real running system they re not really trying to write documents; they re just QA people. Then eventually they burn a disk with the latest release of Microsoft Word, and they mail it out to all the world s lawyers, writers, students, and whoever else uses Microsoft Word. That works pretty well for word processors because it s a product that was developed in the 60s by IBM, and people are pretty sure of what the minimum features should be in a word processor. It also works pretty well because people don t demand frequent upgrades. There aren t new requirements and new ideas coming out in word processors, so if you have a release every three years, that s just fine. It doesn t hurt that Microsoft has a monopoly and there s no competition, so if it takes them 4 years instead of 3, it doesn t make any difference.
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